McLaren to NHTSA: importers are full of it, 12C will never conform

"DCCARGEEK" (dccargeek)
04/03/2014 at 13:04 • Filed to: None

Last week the law firm of Mayer Brown LLP !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! on behalf of McLaren Automotive in response to a !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! to import the 2012 McLaren MP4-12C and bring them up to U.S. safety standards (FMVSS).

In the letter, the lawyers for McLaren ask for more time saying that this matter is a very complicated and technical one.

The letter goes on to say, "In McLaren's view, J.K. cannot satisfy the statutory criteria, since it would be very difficult, if not impossible, to bring nonconforming MP4 [12C] vehicles into compliance with all applicable FMVSS s."

Letter:

It'll be interesting to see if the response from McLaren is a genuine concern regarding safety standards or has more to do with controlling the availability of its products and any associated pricing strategies.

Discussion:

What impact if any does importing cars to the U.S. have on the original brand?

Further, if an importer wants to import vehicles, should the original automaker have a required role in the process? If not required, are they obligated to provide comment specifically if it relates to a safety issue?

DISCUSSION (59)

UserNotFound > DCCARGEEK
04/03/2014 at 13:16

I'm sure J K Technologies deals with that from many manufacturers, but they're a pretty capable company. From talking with one of their employees once, Ferrari has done that sort of thing - "There's no way you could make this car US legal" - and been proven wrong.

I feel this is more of a control issue like you suggested.

Santiago of Escuderia Boricua > DCCARGEEK
04/03/2014 at 13:16

I see their point. Import > badly modify > crash > lawsuit on McLaren, worst case

Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney > DCCARGEEK
04/03/2014 at 13:17

Is there a summary somewhere of the issues at hand here that we can read, such as why they want to imported UK-spec 12Cs, etc.?

As per your discussion question, I think the answer per statute is 'no', but given that so much of the reason that we have our asinine importation standards today is because of the significant influence of a major European manufacturer (cough: Mercedes Benz), methinks the NHTSA probably gives the wishes of OEMs some serious credence in these matters.

DCCARGEEK > UserNotFound
04/03/2014 at 13:18

JK is one of the larger, if not the most frequent requester of imported vehicles. I think at some point I want to drive up to Baltimore and see their facility.

450X_FTW > Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney
04/03/2014 at 13:21

it's a lot of times related to bumpers, lights, crash standards. With diesels its always emissions related

DCCARGEEK > Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney
04/03/2014 at 13:24

I included the link in the story above. This is a line-by-line (or FMVSS-by-FMVSS) as JK proposes to bring the 12C up to standard.

http://www.regulations.gov/#!documentDeta…

Party-vi > DCCARGEEK
04/03/2014 at 13:24

In 1988, Mercedes-Benz lobbied Congress and got them to pass the Motor Vehicle Safety Compliance Act. This is the reason you cannot import a vehicle not designed to be sold in the US, into the US. McLaren is attempting to block the importation and federalization of one of their older vehicles , just like Mercedes blocked the grey market importation of their more powerful and desirable European model cars back in the 1980s because it was eating away at their profits in the US. Fuck McLaren.

Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney > DCCARGEEK
04/03/2014 at 13:27

Man, I'm sorry, I glossed right over that. Thanks.

Satoshi "Zipang" Katsura > Party-vi
04/03/2014 at 13:30

And yet, US consumers can't have a say in it. Fuck Mercedes and McLaren. I like their cars but I hate their stuck-up corporate asshats.

UserNotFound > DCCARGEEK
04/03/2014 at 13:41

So what in there is "very complicated"? For a Ferrari F430 they have to fabricate side impact members and install them i

Axial > Party-vi
04/03/2014 at 13:42

Came here to say this. Fuck Mercedes, fuck McLaren.

UserNotFound > Santiago of Escuderia Boricua
04/03/2014 at 13:42

DCCARGEEK > UserNotFound
04/03/2014 at 13:43

We shall wait and see what jewel McLaren brings forward...if NHTSA grants the extension.

Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney > DCCARGEEK
04/03/2014 at 13:47

I guess I'm still missing why JK wants to import them in the first place. Do they think they can acquire them cheaper overseas and import them at a profit here, or are the features or something that are available on Euro models that aren't available here?

DCCARGEEK > Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney
04/03/2014 at 13:52

That I don't know. In some cases there are limited supplies in one country, keeping the prices high and depreciation low. I assume all the 12Cs built for the US are sold and JK has buyers willing to pay a premium to have one.

rgt881 > DCCARGEEK
04/03/2014 at 13:52

I think it's a warranty, liability, part supply issue and yes idIoTIc LaWs

LodestarRunner > Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney
04/03/2014 at 13:53

I'd say it's the former. McLaren is trying to protect its profits by saying that the Euro models are very different, which is simply not the case.

guanacoracing > Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney
04/03/2014 at 13:59

It looks like JK seems to want to import a mostly US-spec model that happens to be overseas. I'm sure they can make a profit even after retrofitting all the items they list. Note that this does not involve any crash testing as with other non-US spec models or models never intended for the US.

AMC/Renauledge > DCCARGEEK
04/03/2014 at 14:01

Part of the impact on the original brand is image management. If McLaren doesn't have a direct hand in the Federalized vehicles being sold, then whatever cut-and-shut, slapdash methods the importer uses to pass muster could reflect on the original company.

Word-of-mouth, particularly in more moneyed circles, is a powerful advertiser.

Raphael Orlove > Party-vi
04/03/2014 at 14:12

I really need to do a feature on the genesis of these regs. So shady, all in plain sight.

Raphael Orlove > DCCARGEEK
04/03/2014 at 14:13

Juan, if you do plan a trip, let me know. I would love to come with.

Party-vi > Raphael Orlove
04/03/2014 at 14:14

It would be a good accompanying piece to PART TWO OF YOUR STORY WHERE IS IT RAPHAEL DON'T MAKE ME GET MERCEDES TO LOBBY THE SHIT OUT OF YOU!!!!!!

Raphael Orlove > UserNotFound
04/03/2014 at 14:14

Do you have any links to that Ferrari case? Do you remember what car it was?

chuck07 > DCCARGEEK
04/03/2014 at 14:21

I checked their site but I can't find where they are located. http://www.jktechnologies.net/index.htm Used google to find that they are right off 83. Maybe Ill stop by one day.

Chris Furlough > DCCARGEEK
04/03/2014 at 14:25

If you buy one of these cars, I would bet you would NEVER get dealer service. You'd be stuck having to go to the McLaren mechanic on the corner.

How will they stop the imported models? Simple! They'll not sell the gauge cluster, and accompanying "programming" as mentioned in the document below. They can make it so that your car CAN'T be sold here, but keeping you from being able to reprogram the bits that need to be reprogrammed.

(At least that's how I see it).

The J > Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney
04/03/2014 at 14:25

I think it is likely JK is simply doing this work on behalf of a client or they just want to be ready when someone asks for one. I don't think they make money from importing the cars, someone else imports their own and they just perform the conversion work. This is their website. http://www.jktechnologies.net /

TractionControlOff > DCCARGEEK
04/03/2014 at 14:26

McLaren is obviously responding to customers who are concerned about resale value. The 650S is pretty much being made because of that, and now this. They better be careful that they don't turn into Ferrari, though...

Haze > DCCARGEEK
04/03/2014 at 14:56

In other cases of luxury goods sold in multiple markets, such as luxury wrist watches, the price charged for the good is substantially lower in say Africa than it is in America because Americans can bear a higher price than Africans. That could be one issue and that has been fought by watch manufacturers in US courts. My guess however is that there are substantial construction differences between US and othe nation cars that prevent importation.

T5Killer > Party-vi
04/03/2014 at 14:59

One of the reasons I hate MB.

Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney > The J
04/03/2014 at 14:59

I understand that, but someone at some point is bearing the cost of importation and conformation, be it JK or their client, and there has to be a reason behind that cost.

monovich > Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney
04/03/2014 at 15:02

It could just be that a European owner wants to import theirs.

UserNotFound > Raphael Orlove
04/03/2014 at 15:03

No, I don't have any links or articles. Through the Baltimore chapter of SAE and UMBC's Baja SAE program I have been on two tours of their facilities and I have talked with one of their engineers several times, which is where the Ferrari stories come from. He told us about two cases, one with an Enzo, and one with an F430 convertible. With the F430, from what I recall, they were told that there would be no way to modify the door structure to install the required side-impact protection. As it turns out it was a pretty straightforward process and they were able to meet the NHTSA requirements.

UserNotFound > Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney
04/03/2014 at 15:06

A lot of people who buy cars like this overseas and later move to the states want to take their personal cars with them. It is in JK Techonologies' best interest to be able to federalize popular cars such as the 12C for their clients.

Haze > DCCARGEEK
04/03/2014 at 15:08

The stuff about the A Pillar airbag sounds a little squinchy, and they seem to think that side impact protection is installed when the A pillar airbag is. There could be something about those systems not being safely retrofittable to a non-US car. I also notice that they intend to buy all parts from McLaren, who doesn't sound very interested in selling them the parts. I also wonder if the bumper brackets are the same as the US model why they are including parts to beef up the brackets to conform to US standards? It will be interesting to read McLaren's future filing.

dogisbadob > DCCARGEEK
04/03/2014 at 15:10

Well then maybe they should increase production. Duh.

It is a case for harmonizing the standards, though.

I agree with BobLob though, why are they importing them? Are they really making any money on them?

dogisbadob > DCCARGEEK
04/03/2014 at 15:12

Yeah, but JK still has to make money. Even for a supercar, those buyers do indeed have limits on what they're going to pay. Rich people didn't get their money by being stupid, especially not by being stupid with money.

Daywalker > DCCARGEEK
04/03/2014 at 15:24

Coleman Sachs sounds like the evil(er) younger brother of Goldman Sachs.

aimawayfromface3 > DCCARGEEK
04/03/2014 at 15:28

I have a feeling this is more related to overly jumpy legal counsel want to show due diligence than it is a legitimate attempt to block import.

What is stunning for me is the complete lack of specificity as to their objection. If they have reasons why it would be difficult, then they should state them. Absent that, it is just garbage that should be tossed aside.

Takuro Spirit > dogisbadob
04/03/2014 at 16:31

Have you met Justin Beiber, or any rapper or pro athlete lately?

Half-Caulked Jack > Party-vi
04/03/2014 at 16:39

pretty much what I was going to say, well done sir.

crowmolly > Daywalker
04/03/2014 at 16:42

They have a third brother Harry.

Half-Caulked Jack > Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney
04/03/2014 at 16:46

I think it's what Juan Barnett was saying, for the most part-

People really want these cars, and the US production run has already been sold out. The only option left for someone who wants one is to import it, or try to buy it from someone who already has one- Based on what I've heard, no one will give up their 12c for any realistic amount of money, so it's worth it to those people to pay an extra couple hundred thousand dollars to get a car imported and modified to US Spec.

A lot of that cost will likely be speculative and subjective in nature, because what are you gonna do about it? Or some similar mentality.

dogisbadob > Takuro Spirit
04/03/2014 at 17:28

Fair enough. At least that Justin thing you talk about is Canadian, so he'd count toward that country's allocation rather than ours, and Transport Canada is far less childish than our equivalent (Even though CMVSS is more or less the FMVSS copy/pasted and translated to French, they do allow European headlights and bumpers up there)

kbunton > DCCARGEEK
04/03/2014 at 17:43

It's not a greed or power issue like everyone is making it out to be... There is a much simpler explanation. In the US, product liability laws say that a manufacturer is responsible for any use of their product, even misuse, if it was a foreseen use. Further, the manufacturer is deemed to be an expert in their field and therefor should foresee any reasonable use of their product. That being said, cars that don't meet US safety regs but are imported by a third party are still McLaren's responsibility. If someone were to be hurt or killed in one, McLaren would be open to a massive negligence lawsuit in allowing a non-US spec car to be imported... Even if the driver was at fault or a component installed by the third party caused or contributed to the accident. They're not going to sue the importer, because McLaren has the deep pockets. Punitive damages are no joke, and while McLaren is a huge company, no one wants to take a potential multi-million dollar hit.

Of course the manufacturer should have the ultimate say in an issue like this, as they are ultimately liable for any damages caused if the shit hits the fan. All it takes is one rich kid to wrap his daddy's car around a telephone pole and McLaren is out a lot of money.

ranwhenparked > DCCARGEEK
04/03/2014 at 17:56

"It'll be interesting to see if the response from McLaren is a genuine concern regarding safety standards or has more to do with controlling the availability of its products and any associated pricing strategies."

I'm leaning toward the second option - this feels an awful lot like the behavior of the West Germans back in the 1980s, which is the reason we got into this whole trade barrier mess of different regulations in the first place.

Boss2452stolemylunchmoney > Raphael Orlove
04/03/2014 at 19:40

This really is only about protecting Their US distribution model. These type of vehicles are built and sold into markets like the US in very limited quantities. Quantities that are purposefully lower than the market demand so that they can raise their prices. Importer could impact the price in these very high price and low quantity markets. However, there really is no hazard to the low price markets that most people buy cars in. The law could easily allow importing cars without impacting the biggest portion of the automotive sector. Because why would you pay $5-$10k and wait for months more to import a Mondeo when you could just get the Fusion at your local dealer.

mr_gofast > Raphael Orlove
04/03/2014 at 21:58

here Raphael - its very interesting reading.

http://www.ferrariownersclub.co.uk/happenings/200…

http://www.bigcoupe.com/links/links/im…

Raphael Orlove > mr_gofast
04/03/2014 at 23:00

Many thanks, these are great!

offroadkarter > Raphael Orlove
04/03/2014 at 23:23

Please do, as the owner of a grey market E23 I'd love to read up on what went down during that era

tusk09er > DCCARGEEK
04/04/2014 at 00:24

i dont think the 12c's are selling that well. local mclaren dealer here has a ton the lot....literally. like 20

boxrocket > Party-vi
04/04/2014 at 00:37

No. Just no. There may be many different things different between cars designed for the U.S versus cars designed for other countries. Not the least of which might be engine and emissions programming and tuning for our gasoline, SAFETY differences, suspension tuning, airbag deployment programming, computer programming, language options, dealer/factory service support, warranty coverage, tire compounds, bumper height rules, exhaust tuning to comply with noise mandates, etc. Build a car on McLaren's website, and the first thing it asks is what country it's being built for. Rolls-Royce does the same. So does Ferrari, Lamborghini, Bugatti, Bentley, Tesla, Noble, etc. There's a reason for it, and it's not to piss off their consumer, which, be reminded, is the person actually BUYING THE CAR and KEEPING THEM IN BUSINESS (except maybe Ferrari, who probably profits more from their "lifestyle accessories" than their cars). For all we know the importer is trying to being in cars from Asian and African markets where, for hypothetical example, the gas might be complete crap but the car is designed to run on it, and wears tires designed for lower-maintained roads, more stop-and-go traffic, harder bumps without airbag deployment, etc., and would be a wholly negative experience to the importer's customers, who may not buy a McLaren (or other brand brought in under similar circumstances) because of that negative experience, and share that experience with their rich supercar-buying acquaintances, possibly wasting the millions spent building and maintaining the North American market the OEM has made for themselves if/when they had to close up shop here. Thinking about the flip side, those sake regulations are part of the reason we don't get the global Ford Ranger, the Ford Falcon, VW Amarok, Holden anything (until modified and neutered) Nissan Skyline, Volvo V40, Alfa Romeos, etc., because making them legal for the U.S. can be expensive and difficult unless the car was designed to be truly global, like the current Ford Focus, Fiesta, Fusion/Mondeo, Mazda 3, 6, CX-5, Miata, and a few other cars.
Don't get me wrong though, I agree the 25-year rule imposed in-part by Mercedes-Benz is crap and should be repealed (along with its other stipulations, like truck imports), but don't assume a manufacturer is doing it to be a dick. They'd likely be happy to transfer an existing accessible car to a prospective client were it possible (or, y'know, build them a new one all their own) than lose out on a sale and increased brand awareness

boxrocket > Party-vi
04/04/2014 at 00:40

Also, the 12C isn't old: it's still in production, and used examples hold their value relatively well.

Svend > DCCARGEEK
04/04/2014 at 02:24

I'm guessing there will be subtle differences from U.S. spec and that of other countries therefore the question is how to make them U.S. spec and who will do it? Will altering the spec after manufacture affect the warranty or life of the vehicle? If the work is done state-side and not by McLaren will McLaren be held responsible if anything should go wrong and whether they are responsible for it or not, surely it would have an effect on the brand.

For a start there are the corner markers (not such a big deal to sort), octane level and other fuel differences from one continent and another, handling characteristics in relation to different types of road surface, emission regulations, and so on. These are pretty simple in respect to these cars are very technically advanced and it would only take a simple error and make these a regular inicdote like the Ferrari 458 and fires or the Tesla or something, I can't recall off the top of my head) bursting into flames after a minor incident or days after a minor incident.

McLaren have been working on racing cars both adapting other peoples (like Mercedes) or there own but making road going cars is still relatively new and they would want bad press because they said okay and someone else screwed up, but also from another aspect I can see that McLaren's U.S. dealership network will want to protect their profit margin and wouldn't want to drop the price to maintain sales because McLaren had sold them out (so to speak) and allowed cheaper imports into the country.

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04/04/2014 at 05:10

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Party-vi > boxrocket
04/04/2014 at 08:11

Mercedes didn't impose the 25 year rule - the government finally allowed an exemption because they considered cars older than 25 years to be collector or classic vehicles.

Also, you should read the request filed by J.K. Technologies and go through the list of things they would need to change in order to federalize the vehicle. There are no safety items that need changed (no airbags, no brakes, no suspension components hell not even tires!). McLaren is purposefully trying to stop this to prevent J.K. Technologies from purchasing used McLaren's not legal for sale in the US, federalizing them, and then reselling them to consumers here. If someone really wants an MP4-12C and McLaren isn't shipping any more 2013 or 2014 models to the US then the consumer's only option is to order an older car.

Here's the full list of non-US compliant parts:

Instrument cluster

Headlights, taillights, side marker lights

Tire pressure label

Passenger "objects in mirror..." mirror labeling

Key-in-ignition ding noise and seatbelt noise

VIN plate on the cowl

Bumper brackets must be added

See? literally seven different tasks must be done to make the UK 12C compliant for sale in the US. The braking fluid is already DOT approved, just like the emissions equipment, airbags, glass, etc. McLaren is doing this to control the resale of used vehicles on the US market. If they can stop the sale of an older 12C, they can almost guarantee the sale of a new one.

Party-vi > boxrocket
04/04/2014 at 08:11

Right. McLaren is trying to prevent the importation and sale of their non-US models, literally the same thing Mercedes did in the 1980s.

Captain_Spadaro > DCCARGEEK
04/15/2014 at 10:49

I thought the 2012 12C was officially sold here.

DCCARGEEK > Captain_Spadaro
04/15/2014 at 10:50

It is, but in limited quantities.

Captain_Spadaro > DCCARGEEK
04/15/2014 at 10:55

Ah, okay.